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Talk:Super Saiyan Third Grade
Did vegeta reach ultra super saiyan in the hyperbolic time chamber while he was training with future trunks? How come vegeta did not use his ultra super saiyan form on perfect cell? If vegeta were to go ultra super saiyan in the series would his physicial features change or he would look the same as his ascended super saiyan form(Super Vegeta). How does Future trunks know that vegeta could have gone Ultra Super Saiyan on perfect cell? :There's no such form as Ultra Super Saiyan 2. There are Ascended and Ultra stages of Super Saiyan, but even these are titles created by fans. The only names these stages are given in the series are "ascended Saiyan" and more or less, "something greater than Super Saiyan." [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 19:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC) ::As for Vegeta being Ultra Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 1 stage 3 as the stage is correctly called, the Daizenshuu and Perfect File books only indicate that Vegeta achieved the stage of Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2 or Ascended Super Saiyan. What Mirai Trunks realized was why his father chose not to go beyond Ascended Super Saiyan. What was implied was that Vegeta knew about the drawbacks of going further than Ascended Super Saiyan. Anything such as Vegeta possibly having achieved Ultra Super Saiyan was left subject to speculation. However, officially it can be concluded that Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2, and that is what will be recorded. '-- bulletproof' 04:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Vegeta Since some seem to be adamant about including Vegeta as a user, I thought I'd mention my perspective on the matter, FWIW. Those for adding Vegeta seem to use Trunks' statement that Vegeta chose not to use the form as confirmation that Vegeta was able to use the form. This is faulty logic. I can choose not to climb Mount Everest because I feel it would be a waste of energy that would probably get me killed. Note that I did not actually have to climb Mount Everest to come to this conclusion. Likewise, Vegeta did not need to master the Ultra Super Saiyan form in order to choose not to use it. -- 11:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Did you see the Talk:Ascended Super Saiyan page? Ultra Super Saiyan 4 Is their a possibilty of a Ultra Super Saiyan 4? There is, but it doesn't exist. 23:34, July 27, 2010 (UTC) Mmm maybe it wouldn't have the disadvantages of the normal one.--Hulk10 (talk) 21:22, January 25, 2017 (UTC) Would ussj be stronger then ssj3 if it did not have speed decrease or major power usage ﻿ would ussj be stronger then ssj3 if it did not have major power usage or speed decreaseUser_talk:Vegeta_ssj5 :No. With the Base powers being the same, this form's maximum power is still roughly equal to a fully powered up Full-Power Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 2 and 3 will always be beyond this form by leaps and bounds.Xfing 14:15, December 30, 2010 (UTC) Speed decrease: relative or actual? I wonder if an Ultra Super Saiyan does actually get any slower than an Ascended Super Saiyan, or that he just doesn't get any faster... See, Ascended Vegeta wasn't said or shown to be slowed down by his form, yet he was still outclassed by Perfect Cell in both power AND speed. When a character becomes stronger, his speed usually rises in proportion, so Ultra Trunks didn't necessarily have to actually become slower from transforming into this stage - if he simply didn't get any faster (despite his growth of power), it would all be the same. Let me demonstrate on rough relations: Perfect Cell (initial) - Power: 35 Speed: 35 Super Saiyan Trunks - Power: 15 Speed: 15 Ascended SS Trunks - Power: 25 Speed: 25 Ultra SS Trunks - Power: 40: Speed: 25(?) What I'm hinting at is that it's possible that an Ultra Super Saiyan doesn't ACTUALLY get slower than an Ascended SS. His speed would normally rise along with his strength due to powering up, but the muscles counterbalance any speed gain that he might have gotten. The only question (and the one I'm trying to answer) is whether it is to the point of "not being any faster than ASS" or "actually being slower than ASS". As far as I recall, Super Vegeta fared similarly in terms of speed as Ultra Trunks did against Cell. What do you guys think about it? Xfing 14:33, December 30, 2010 (UTC) Super Saiyan increases the base strength of the warrior x50 Super Saiyan 2 increases the strength of the SSJ x2 Super Saiyan 3 increases the strength of SSJ2 x4 but then the SSJ Dai Ni Dankai / Ascended Super Saiyan and the SSJ Dai San Dankai / Ultra Super Saiyan as they increase the strength? I must know! 22:37, February 3, 2011 (UTC) (Sorry to reply to an old post) An interesting question. I get what you're saying about it just being relative, but I'm pretty sure the enlargened muscles not only counterbalance the speed, but they really are large enough to go further and actually slow someone down. This is widely accepted as the truth, I believe. (Again, sorry to reply to a 4-month-old post, but I figured I may as well answer the question no one else did) (Also, on a side note, it's kind of funny to read the Ascended Super Saiyan abbreviation in the middle of a sentence. Hooray for immaturity hey? lol) ZPRN 03:13, May 5, 2011 (UTC) :Lol. Yes, if USS was stronger than ASS (LOL) and just as fast, then Vegeta would have used it. Similarly, if ASS was stronger than FPSS and just as fast, then Goku would have used it. So in terms of power: USS > ASS > FPSS, but in terms of speed: FPSS > ASS > USS. In Goku's mind, speed was the most important. 03:32, May 5, 2011 (UTC) : Hmm... interesting point, seeing how frustrated Vegeta tends to get. But on the other hand, knowing that another transformation won't make you faster if you're already too slow won't change anything may have also been a factor for Vegeta. Also, I believe that FPSSj is actually stronger than USSj of the same Base power, or equal in power to the full power of a USSj. The speed and energy advantages are horrendous, though, so a FPSSj would utterly trash a USSj. Xfing (talk) 14:09, August 26, 2014 (UTC) Vegeta using the form I don't know why I'm helping out Vegeta here, but in the anime and manga, Trunks when he is an Ultra Super Saiyan, and can't hit Cell due to his muscle mass, says that he knew why his father never transformed into that state, because Vegeta knew it would slow him down, so then would Vegeta count as a user? 20:50, June 12, 2011 (UTC) I don't see why not. 21:33, October 11, 2011 (UTC) :If he never used the form, he cannot be listed as a user. Trunks stated that Vegeta never used the form and you want to list Vegeta as a user?? Jeangabin666 22:27, October 11, 2011 (UTC) :Well I see nappa'sgoatee's point because when Goku transformed into the Ultra Super Saiyan for the first time, he immediately knew its drawbacks, so it would be more than likely Vegeta would know as well because he is a talented fighter (Stated somewhere on one of these pages). Goku never really "used" the form, but more than 2 minutes and is considered a user. Evidence from Trunks and Goku show it otherwise. But I see your point as well, because he never 'transformed' onscreen. 00:00, October 12, 2011 (UTC) If he's not a user then we can't list him as a user. 01:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC) Kuzey457 I added an Ultra Super Saiyan pic but Jeangabin removed it and might again. I don't get whats wrong with it. - Kuzey457 07:29, July 15, 2012 (UTC) :The image you added was the Ascended Super Saiyan form. 07:44, July 15, 2012 (UTC) :Oh, well I mistaked it cause it didn't have any pupils. Sorry, but I still think it looks like it... - Kuzey457 07:45, July 15, 2012 (UTC) Name Ultra Super Saiyan is a fan name, we do not use fan names on the wiki. Suggest title to be chagned to Super Saiyan 1.5.Neffyarious (talk) 11:49, September 29, 2013 (UTC) :Hell no, game names too wont used if there is original databook or anime/manga name. Original databook name is Super Saiyan 3rd Grade.[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 11:53, September 29, 2013 (UTC) ::Game name is more legit than fan name.Neffyarious (talk) 12:36, September 29, 2013 (UTC) :::But what the sense use the game name if there is more canon databook name? It may be a fan name, but it is still widely accepted: http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/saiyan/#ussj 20:42, September 29, 2013 (UTC) :What 10X said. Even if the current name is fan-made, this is an important form that needs named, and as said also, the current is widely used. "Ultra Super Saiyan" sounds better than "Super Saiyan 1.5" anyway. 20:10, September 30, 2013 (UTC) Super Saiyan 3rd Grade should be used then, it is completely official as it appears in a guide book. Buutenks and Buuhan are widely used fan names for Super Buu's forms but we don't mention them on Super Buu's page.Neffyarious (talk) 09:35, April 9, 2014 (UTC) :"Ascended" Super Saiyan and "Ultra" Super Saiyan should be changed to 2nd Grade Super Saiyan and 3rd Grade Super Saiyan. We don't use fan names, even if they are popular, as I said above with the Super buu absorptions examples. Additonally "Ascended Super Saiyan" is an alternate Official name for Super Saiyan 2 (used in the anime and in the Z Collectible Card Game), and Ultra Super Saiyan is an alternate name for Super Saiyan 3 (Gotenks calls SS3 Ultra Super Saiyan in the anime, Trunks calls SS3 Ultra Super Saiyan in the manga, and some games call Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3 form Ultra Super Saiyan). So the names need to be changed to their official names used in the guidebooks.Neffyarious (talk) 12:27, June 12, 2014 (UTC) Which guidebook uses 2nd Grade for Ascended Super Saiyan, and which guidebook uses 3rd Grade for Ultra Super Saiyan? 23:21, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :Almost all. Concretely - all of Daizenshuu and Chozenshuu.--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 06:52, June 13, 2014 (UTC) :And also The History of Trunks ''anime comics.Neffyarious (talk) 08:03, June 13, 2014 (UTC) So. Would it be better to change them to 2nd/3rd Grade, or keep the current fan names?--Neffyarious (talk) 05:00, June 29, 2014 (UTC) :If second grade and third grade are used in licensed media (guidebooks) and Ascended and Ultra are not, I am leaning toward the grade system. As long as we are discussing variants below SS2, where does Full Power SS fit in, is there an official name for it? 18:31, June 29, 2014 (UTC) Full-Power SS is an offical name, used in Goku's profile in ''Daizenshuu, and also in other pieces of promotional material. It's only other official name is 4th Grade Super Saiyan, which is used in the Trunks special anime comics.--Neffyarious (talk) 20:03, July 3, 2014 (UTC) :Well I'm convinced, Second Grade and Third Grade seem better than Ascended and Ultra. Anyone disagree at this point? 20:09, July 3, 2014 (UTC) :I will invest in this. *throws money* 21:46, July 3, 2014 (UTC) :Is it okay to change it then?--Neffyarious (talk) 21:07, July 15, 2014 (UTC) ::Since there are no disagreements.Neffyarious (talk) 12:49, July 22, 2014 (UTC) Fine by me. 23:19, July 22, 2014 (UTC) *Done.Neffyarious (talk) 13:38, July 23, 2014 (UTC) *The last thing is, should "Ascended Super Saiyan"/"Ultra Super Saiyan" remain as redirects to "2nd Grade Super Saiyan"/"3rd Grade Super Saiyan", or be changed into redirects to "Super Saiyan 2"/"Super Saiyan 3".Neffyarious (talk) 13:40, July 23, 2014 (UTC) :Second. More canonically--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 14:06, July 23, 2014 (UTC) They should stay as is, redirecting to 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Many fans and other sites use those terms. They do not refer to SS2 or SS3. 00:15, July 24, 2014 (UTC) :I sort of agree that they should remain as redirects to 2nd and 3rd grade due to being common names, but at the same time they are official alternate names for SS2 and SS3, as I noted above. So im not sure.Neffyarious (talk) 07:59, July 24, 2014 (UTC) What do you mean by official alternate names? What are the sources? 00:02, July 25, 2014 (UTC) *"Ascended Super Saiyan" is an alternate Official name for Super Saiyan 2 (used in the anime and in the Z Collectible Card Game), and Ultra Super Saiyan is an alternate name for Super Saiyan 3 (Gotenks calls Super Saiyan 3 Ultra Super Saiyan in the anime, Trunks calls Super Saiyan 3 Ultra Super Saiyan in the manga, and some games call Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3 form Ultra Super Saiyan (such as Supersonic Warriors).--Neffyarious (talk) 08:28, July 25, 2014 (UTC) :Trunks also call Super Saiyan 3 as Ultra Super Saiyan in the original japanese version of anime, but for "Ascended" - i dont think that the CCGname is enough for calling its name "official for Super Saiyan 2" - where exactly you hear it in the anime? This was the original?--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 08:50, July 25, 2014 (UTC) :It was actually called "Ascended Saiyan" in the anime, not "Ascended Super Saiyan", my bad.Neffyarious (talk) 11:12, July 25, 2014 (UTC) ::I remember it, but its dub exlusive--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 11:26, July 25, 2014 (UTC) Ultra in the Japanese version is just a translation anyway. It could be accurately translated as "mega" or "giga" or anything really. Let's just stick with the popular versions. Remember that redirects are not official site stances—they are only tools to help users get sent to the article that they are most likely looking for. Especially with the recent page renames, it is likely they will be looking for 2nd and 3rd grade. 23:07, July 26, 2014 (UTC) :We also have a lot of in-article links that are referring to grade 2, but literally say ascended. If we switch the redirect to SS2, then the article will not make sense. Good points, I agree that it should remain as is then.--Neffyarious (talk) 05:03, July 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Actually, "Ultra" its not translation - in original, its "ウルトラ" (Urutora), a concrete word.--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 05:30, July 27, 2014 (UTC) Thanks Date, good info. 20:49, July 27, 2014 (UTC) WHERE DID THE NAME "SUPER SUPER SAIYAN" COME FROM??!! Stitchking1 (talk) 11:54, September 15, 2015 (UTC) I WENT OVER THE MANGA AND KRILLEN CALLED IT THE "SUPER SUPER SAIYAN THING". MAYBE I'M JUST READING IT WRONG BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT AND JUST BLURTED SOMETHING OUT. WE COULD JUST START CALLING SUPER SAIYAN 3 "DOUBLE ASCENDED" IF WE GO BY THAT NAMING CONVENTION. Stitchking1 (talk) 12:03, September 15, 2015 (UTC) I'm guessing that I just got brushed off again. Yes/No? Stitchking1 (talk) 14:45, September 16, 2015 (UTC) The guide books refer to this form as '3rd Grade Super Saiyan', so that should be used, as games are not a reliable source. ESPLover (talk) 14:31, September 22, 2015 (UTC) Neffyarious is being.... idk Meshack (talk) 20:47, September 22, 2015 (UTC) what in the world is a super suprr saiyan. Can you change it back to super saiyan third grade. This name belows in alias or alternate names. Nikon23 03:47, September 23, 2015 (UTC) That's what I'm saying. X10 and Neffarious insists we use "dub terms" even though it's wrong and FUNIMATION MESSED UP! Meshack (talk) 03:49, September 23, 2015 (UTC) :Actually I'm insisting you adhere to the Manual of Style. You're welcome to use the Manual's talk page to discuss changing it. 05:49, September 23, 2015 (UTC) USSJ power? How much stronger would this form be over the standard super saiyan form? This form technically has no set power due this form only being differant from Ascended super saiyan due to the former doesn't reduce your speed. This form can always get stronger by increasing its poer so this form does not really have a set power to it correct me if I'am wrong.Gorea Core-X (talk) 17:03, March 24, 2014 (UTC) : No info was ever given on that, so we cannot speculate. All we know is that in terms of power: : Super Saiyan G1 << Super Saiyan G2 << Super Saiyan G3 temporarily transformed into the Ultra Super Saiyan while loading up the Final Flash as a desperate move to finish Cell. He knew he wouldn't have to deal with the speed limitations, if he'd be able to trick Cell into testing his strength and giving him a free shot. Look at the physical similarities of Trunks' transformation process in USSJ and Vegeta charging up the Final Flash. Pupils disappear, muscle increase, spikes of the aura, etc... Moreover, it is possible that this is the (one of the) reason(s) why his Final Flash against the Cell Jr. wasn't as powerful (even after training for the second time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber), because he didn't charge the attack while being in the USSJ state. Did vegeta reach ultra super saiyan in the hyperbolic time chamber while he was training with future trunks? How come vegeta did not use his ultra super saiyan form on perfect cell? If vegeta were to go ultra super saiyan in the series would his physicial features change or he would look the same as his ascended super saiyan form(Super Vegeta). How does Future trunks know that vegeta could have gone Ultra Super Saiyan on perfect cell? SSGSS Goku Vs Frieza. The fight was amazing. Some of the new moves each character used.was awesome as well! I just really like this fight. SSGSS Goku Vs Frieza. The fight was amazing. Some of the new moves each character used.was awesome as well! I just really like this fight. Not the place. 10x the previous form? Seriously...? Just because some obscure guide put in an arbitrary number like this, doesn't mean this should be stated as undisputable fact. A difference in power of 10x is tremendous in the DB universe, and this would make Grade 3 much more powerful and useful than it was portrayed as being. Seriously, this looks even more ridiculous considering that Super Saiyan 2 is said to only be 2x regular Super Saiyan (which is just as ridiculous, but at least it comes from the SEG, which definitely has higher standing in the community than the sources quoted for this thing here). Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was so much more powerful than Cell, that not even a chain of power-ups, a Grade 3 transformation included, gave Cell no hope of winning,he in fact got offed by a single kick to the stomach. This would never, ever work if SSj2 was only 2x over FPSSj and Grade 3 was supposedly 15x or more (factoring in the multiplier of Grade 2 that you also have to consider). Please consider editing this section in some fashion so that it doesn't spread such harmful misconceptions based on some vague, arbitrary sources. Xfing (talk) 13:06, July 30, 2017 (UTC) *I agree with this. Can someone please remove the weird spanish guides as though they're official. Gildeds (talk) 04:18, August 10, 2017 (UTC) They are official. Our Manual of Style ranks them under the same canon tier as other guidebooks.--Neffyarious (talk) 23:04, August 14, 2017 (UTC) :This is really bad idea to make some unjapanese guidebooks without any connection to actual staff of the series, mangaka and series team, as legit as japanese. Not all of even japanese guidebooks can be legit.--[[User:SuperSaiyanDate|'Date']] 07:01, August 15, 2017 (UTC) :if we consider this info true the boost grade 3 give is even larger than the ssj3 boost x8 ssj which would make no sense if trunks would have gotten over 10 times stronger he would have obliterated cell with one hit. We shouldn't take it as a fact if it is mentioned is spanish magazine if it overides simple logic. If it was japanese magzin that gets information from the writing staff than I would execpt it even if it doesn't make much sense but since it came from spain they might as well made that number up to look cool or something. I think that maybe it should only be stated in a trivia or something that it was mentioned in spanish magazine if according to MOS it must be included otherwise i would have removed that piece of information because it doesn't make any sense.Cheamte (talk) 08:12, August 15, 2017 (UTC) :Well, if you come to think of it, Super Saiyan and its strains and variations are all multiplicative. Trunks was nearly equal to Vegeta in Second Grade and Vegeta was quickly defeated by Cell, meanwhile Gohan in Super Saiyan 1 Grade 4 received a barrage of punches and stood later nearly unfazed. It's safe to assume Gohan had a stronger base form by that point, and as such his Super Saiyan form alone was stronger than Vegeta's and Trunks' Second Grades. As such, if Grade 3 gives a 10x boost to SS1 and SS2 gives a 2x boost, it would still be conceivable that Gohan's SS2 (100x times Gohan's base) would be stronger than Trunks' SS1 Grade 3 (500x Trunks' base). The Heretic Lord (talk) 23:06, September 27, 2017 (UTC) Trivia I feel "Though Ultra Super Saiyan is not an official name for the Super Saiyan Third Grade form, it has widely been accepted and popularized by the Dragon Ball fan base as a proper and general name for the form." should be changed to "Ultra Super Saiyan is not an official name for the Super Saiyan Third Grade form, it was widely been accepted and popularized by the Dragon Ball fan base as at a time when the west did not have access to official sources." It isn't widely accepted anymore, we have an official name now and I don't think we should be allowing misinformation to live on. TheCreepy904 (talk) 12:51, January 31, 2020 (UTC)